Harmonies and Hymns: An Inspiring Conversation with Reverend Stephen G Marsh

Welcome, welcome, welcome. I am Regina D Jemison and you are here with the More of God, the Road Less Traveled. I do not have my partner in crime, doug Smith, with me today, but I do have a special treat. I do have a special treat as we continue our conversation about soul music, I have with me the Reverend Stephen G Marsh Stephen Gary Marsh, who is with us today to have a conversation about soul music, but has such depth in the world of music and in the world of Christianity. He's been an ordained minister for over 40 years, since 1983. Some of y'all wasn't even born then, but he is here with us today. He's a pastor preacher. He has done it all Pastor preacher, teacher, organizer, community organizer, activist, advocate and a voice for the voiceless and oppressed. He has pastored on the East Coast, in the Midwest, he has pastored in Wisconsin. He has been a bishop before and he is currently in his semi-retired vibe hosting a radio show called Jazz and Jazz on 104.1 FM in Wisconsin. So say hello to the people, reverend Marsh.

Hello people, I am really glad to be here with my friend Regina, who has the most distinctive laugh in the world, and I thank you for inviting me on your show. I am truly honored and the name of my radio show is not Jazz and Jazz, it's Jazz, jazz.

See, I stand corrected. See, that's important, that's important.

Absolutely. They'll be looking for the wrong show.

That's right. That's right. That's right. So, Steven, let's hop right in Talking about soul music. We did a previous episode. This is kind of a part two or continued conversation. We really talked about those songs that have touched us deeply and have really bring back memories, and those songs that get us through tough times, those songs that carry us through challenging times, those songs that inspire us, those songs that touch us, and so we just wanted to. I thought it was a perfect conversation to have with you, giving your background in leadership and Christianity and music. So talk to us. How does that topic hit you? What would you say at that?

Well, when you were first, as you were just talking, my mind went to the kind of music that has always sought first of all to support us and to lift us up and to give us hope. And that got me thinking about gospel music, and not even so much the contemporary gospel I'm not trying to offend anyone but the gospel that was going on in the 80s and 90s and before that, people like James Cleveland, people like Richard Smallwood, people like Kirk Franklin. They produced the kind of music that just can really lift our soul. So that's where my mind went first. Secondly, the soul music, if you will, the soul music of the, I would say, 60s, 70s, 80s. For me, 60s and 70s in particular, when music was music is what I say and mostly Motown Atlantic. You got your Richard Franklin, you got your Marvin Gaye, you got your Temptations, you got your Stephen Robinson. All of these performers were singing songs that just spoke directly to your heart, to your soul, to your mind. It hit your feet so you started dancing, didn't even know what you were doing. Music certainly has been the catalyst for so many things that happen in our personal lives as well as happen in the community. Music was part of the movement, the civil rights movement. Music has always been part of resistance. In the Bible music was part of celebration. I remember the story of Miriam after they crossed the Red Sea and she just pulled out that tambourine and started shaking it and singing and dancing. So there are lots of entries into talking about music as the rhythm of a people.

Wow, you just said so much. It's like where to get in, when to get in. So let's unpack a few things that you say One thing that really strikes me is when you say when music was music say more about that and I know, look we not old people throwing shade on young people? It's not a generational thing. It's just talking about differences that matter, and differences that have evolved over time. So talk to me about when music was music. What do you mean by that?

By that I mean there was a time in the black community where nobody went anywhere without a radio or something, you know, something that they could hear the songs by, because how to say this? Now, there's a difference between soul music and, you know, rap and hip hop music, you know and I mean not all of them, can you know uplift the soul, but the kind of music I'm talking about is more like the Motown Sound, where you know, where you could go to bop parties and quarter parties and music you could understand the words that kind of made sense. Now, that's if we're talking about popular music. You know the music that most people listen to, and I'm going to say it may just be a generational thing and again, not throwing any shade, every generation has its musical thing that inspired them. Before soul music they had the big bands and bebop, and then soul music and then the hip hop song took over. So you know, it can be a generational thing, but not in a bad way. I grew up in the 60s and 70s and there was a kind of music that was going on then. That just it was. You could dance to it, you could sing it, you could croon it, you know you could get together and harmonize it. That's right. It just went along with the rhythm and the culture, and hip hop music today does that too.

Goes along with the rhythm and the culture.

Yeah, it goes along with the rhythm of the culture.

And I think what, even when you talked about crooning and harmony, I think the parts in harmony and even those that could be acapella, because the harmonies were so tight and so amazing and you know, there was nothing to see a seven to 10 piece band on stage, you know, because you had the percussionists and the horn section and this, and that, like, there was this complement of music that was characteristic of that time. That was really something, and it was and it's distinct from music in later generations, whether you're talking about the 90s or the 2000s or later that you really had this, those kinds of characteristics that were really true to those era 60s, 70s and even some 80s. Yeah so, and even when you talk about, like when you said, the rhythm of a people, because I think that certainly we can talk from the vantage point of a black, of the black experience as African Americans.

But I think I.

It's fair to say that, globally, music, in many cultures, is a voice. It is that which communicates the soul, the expressions, the hurts, the joys of a people, and it really, and so that really resonated with me when you talked about resistance and community. Right, resistance and community, and whether we're talking about North American communities or South. American communities or East.

African communities.

Yeah, that you're talking about. So say more. Talk to me more about resistance and community when you think of music.

One of the things that I think about is my time in Africa. I've been blessed to be in Africa a couple of times, two or three times Each time. I remember being entertained and introduced to different music of different communities and countries. That was both entertaining as well as revolutionary. When I say revolutionary, I mean it helped people to realize who they were sometimes and what they needed to do. Reggae comes to mind in terms of Bob Marley and the Whalers and so many others. If you want to talk about revolutionary music, I think that reggae probably is right up there, because they expressed the desire for freedom both on the inside and on the outside. Reggae expressed a desire for self-determination. They expressed a desire to be able to worship as they wanted and to connect in community as they wanted. I think the parallel here would be the music that was played during the freedom marches, some of the gospel music that was played and that was even adapted to in terms of freedom songs and that kind of thing. There is music and this is reminding me of a quote from a theologian, aubrey Hendrix, who said in one of his books that contemporary gospel music has not hit the liver, it's the liberation button. There's nothing in there. That's liberating about so much of the contemporary gospel music. It's all about salvation and personal salvation and all of that. There was a time when and of course you go back to slavery or whatever there was a time when music set the tone for what was going to happen next. If we're going to escape tonight, if we're going to go down by the cane break and we don't want Masa to hear if we got this going on and that going on, that was always communicated through music. The early spirituals that we have heard, though, certainly were fighting words. They were revolutionary songs. It was resistance music. Before I'd be a slave, I'd be buried in my grave and go home to my Lord and be free. The gospel music of the church came out of that, but I thought it was interesting what Aubrey Hendrix said. There came a time when gospel music was not talking about community. Gospel music just started talking about personal salvation. That's pretty music too, but it has more of an upward desire for freedom, a personal, vertical desire for freedom between you and God, as opposed to more horizontal. That includes the community.

Yeah, like the, if you think about it, it's that we don't hear that cry for systemic freedom, that cry for the kind of transformation that changes a nation. We don't hear that kind of mantra or that kind of cry in the gospel in the contemporary music of today. And I think that what was amazing about what you said is really pointing to that revolutionary bit that I think that, whether it was the, you know, you mentioned many of the names down through the generations that brought forth a new kind of music or a new voice in music, and I think we would be, we would be remiss if we didn't talk about or at least give mention to, you know, hip hop and rap often gets a negative connotation or gets downplayed by those that are not of the current generation. But you talk about a revolutionary kind of music that came out of the South Bronx out of the 80s and that really gave a new voice to people and people's experience, and you know whether it's the KRS ones or or the later voices of oh gosh and I was thinking about it when you were speaking, but the name is facing now what. What they're most known for is F the police, right in oh yeah. I can't think of their name, but you talk about that kind of buck against the system or buck against, or statement against in double. No, no, no, no, what's that? And we don't think about it Give me a minute but just that whole world of really given homage to that kind of voice that, and sometimes in ways that I don't necessarily prefer or like, but look, let's be clear, it is a voice of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of the current generation. It is a voice against something, it is a voice for something that I think often gets missed in some of the ways that it's expressed, and so I don't want us to forget to. And more recent kinds of resistance that were very, that were very marked and were very, very clear, particularly even when you get later into the 90s, the Stop the Violence movement and that whole movement that got born out of that, that got you know, arose with that kind of music. And so I think, like you said, that oftentimes music, music has all those elements of celebration, of resistance, of community, and sometimes it is that catalyst that makes something happen. That catalyst you know with. You know, when I think of catalyst, you go way back to wait in the water, like there was some stirring and there was some happening and you know. And so that I think that just the very nature of what music can be in our lives and how it can connect us to those characteristics of those Christlike or those Godlike characteristics that really remind us of who we are and what's possible in life and what can be done in life, despite how life may be currently looking.

Yes, yes, you've said a mouthful, absolutely. It seems to me that music itself and you know I didn't invent it, but it seems to me the music itself was I wish I had I'd be rich the music itself was meant to express some kind of freedom, to express some things that could not be said, to express some things that couldn't be acted out unless it was accompanied by music. I mean, people would make stuff up and they'd start dancing to it. You know, music was meant to free us up, I believe, in some shape, form or fashion. You know heavenly music, or you know, oh, you know it's meant to kind of take you up there. You know the jazz music that came out of New Orleans. I mean, that was all about freedom. You know, freedom to express and to stay with the culture and to use it for rituals. You know, just a fantastic expression that just continued to grow, you know. And the big band music cut people loose. You know they'd be out on the floor just cutting a step.

You know Right, right right.

It didn't matter what happened to them earlier in the week. You know or probably exciting that we don't dance. You know Right, and you know, so on down the line. I think it's important what you said about hip hop, because that started out as resistance also. You know, that's right. This ghetto that we have to live in, these conditions that we have to live under, that's right. The justice, you know, that keeps getting met out to us. We are, this music is resisting that.

So, after police, you know, for example, you know and that's how it started out.

So much of it is not that anymore. But it also seems to me that a particular genre of music can start out in one way and then kind of you know, end up getting you know, co-opted by, you know by another way. You know jazz. There's so many jazz musicians that are so upset with this smooth jazz stuff. Right, because you know they were out there sweating and traveling, and now all these dudes have to do is, you know, hook a microphone to their saxophone and you know, they got a hit record. So you know, it's not about freedom so much anymore. But you know, in the black community I think music has always been a freedom, an element of freedom. It added an element of freedom to life.

Yeah, I think it's a. What you point to is like there's always this bend towards freedom, whether that was the original intent of the music or not, like for us the way that, which is the way that we connect to it, the way that it transcends us, or the way that we express it as artists or musicians or vocalists, and or just the way that it strikes us. And it was in WA, by the way for that song. I thought you were right, you were right, you were right, you were right. And so I think, what were you gonna say? You probably gonna say something smart, right?

We are on the right. We are on the right, that's right. We are on the right. I won't do it that way.

So be right, be right, be right.

All right, okay, be right.

So I think we're gonna this, we're actually bringing a close to our season, our third season of the More, or Less Trials, so it's a special yeah, so it's a special occasion and it's a special mark. In the moment, I find it hard to believe that we've been on the air this long, and we shall continue, so don't wait you wait, just wait, nothing but God. Nothing but God. You talk about the More of God, and so we will be back at the end of September, but I wanna, stephen, I want you to just give us some last words, cause really, what I hear is there's so many artists that we've mentioned, paid homage to that, genres of music, eras of music, and what you said, one of the things you said in the distance a minute ago when you talked about music giving expression that we don't really have words for, right, cause I think that I think that the beauty of music is and sometimes it is the lyrics, sometimes it is the creativity of an artist that captures our emotions, our experiences, in a way that is so true and so on point. Yet we could never have done that right, and sometimes it's in the silence I think of. I have this playlist called Thinking Silence, and that's just what I named it, but it's a bunch of instrumental jazz, classical, other kinds of drum music, rhythm music, that but it's all instrumental, and I call it thinking silence because it really helps me think, like when I'm trying to write or really work through some projects and think through some things, and so I think about my own experience and how music gives expression in a way that matters, that I haven't been able to capture for myself. And so, steven, what would you leave the audience with when we talk about this experience, this idea of soul music, or even just last remarks or special thoughts for them?

I think music like so much, like so many other things in our African American culture and I'll speak from that perspective is not being passed down. You know, oh, that's good. You know we, you know, I Know people 20 years younger than me that have never listened to a jazz album. You know, or who you know who really really doesn't know who Miles Davis, or Charlie Parker, you know where, yeah, or or even somebody like a Lewis Armstrong, who helped to start the jazz that that has evolved into so many other things. Um, I think somebody who, uh, who really does understand it and has has tried his best to, to, to, to merge some of the generational Music, is Quincy Jones. He has worked with people from, you know, early jazz artists to latest hip-hop, and he has molded them together in the same record and and that, therefore, they have learned about each other, you know the old time old time jazz people didn't know nothing about hip-hop, hip-hop Didn't know nothing about the old time jazz people, you know. But this, this music, is important, it has this this music has has empowered and powered the community, and it wasn't just one genre of music, it wasn't just one generation of music All together. And so you know, I think that music, music education, um Is just as important as as so many other aspects of education um, because I mean, music can, is something that can all is always so creative that, um, it can, it can do so much for our freedom and for our uplift Um and for our community um. So I am, um, I, I myself try to, um, try to pass on, you know what I know? That's what my radio show is all about A jazz job, just trying to, just just trying to pass down a little little history, a little wisdom, a little insight, a little inspiration.

Um, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for um taking the time to be with us today and our listeners. Thank you for and look, people don't forget jazz jive 104.1 fm out of wisconsin, and you don't have to tune in on your fm radio there. I have uh learned how to get it online, so just really tune in thursdays.

At what time? Seven seven, seven to seven thirty central standard time. Thursday seven to seven thirty central standard time and you can hear again Um get it on the internet.

Yeah, from uh steven marsh, so thank you.

There are lots of 104.1. So this is river west radio.

River west radio 104.1 fm. Yes, tune in thursdays Seven thirty seven to seven. Thirty seven to seven thirty yes, seven to seven.

thirty yes tune in at seven o'clock.

That's right. Seven o'clock how about that? And stay there? Yeah and stay there. Thank you, um. Thank you for taking the time. You'll hear from um. Yeah, you'll hear from steven g marsh in our season coming up, and You'll hear from other guests from us We'll. We will have more guests in the upcoming season, but thank you for the time that you have spent with us today and um my pleasure. Yeah, just thank you, Thank you Well let us pray. Thank you. Yes, let us pray, god and God, who is, was and ever shall be. Thank you, god, for this time of conversation. Thank you, god, for this time of remembering and even gaining strength and power to go forward. God, we pray that you would look over our listeners and touch their families, touch people where they are hurting and Touch people where their joy is kept. Just touch and keep lord, heal and help. Do what you do in the lives of people across the world. We thank you for this time together and we thank you, most importantly, for your holy in spirit that attends to us. It is in your name that we pray and say amen.

Amen, amen. Thank you, reverend sister regina d jemison, you're welcome.